Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Accountability Corner, where we talk about everything obstacle course racing, from staying disciplined in training, affording the sport, signing up for your first race and, more importantly, how the sport is growing around the world, with your hosts Morgan Maxwell, chris Shipley and Darren.
Speaker 2:
Martin, Right, let's kick off episode 26 of Accountability Corner. And I got it right. Today it is episode 26. Mo has got his guns out looking extremely pale. Look at those milk bottles.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, hasn't he? Why? I've only just noticed as well. That's a bad fashion statement, Mo.
Speaker 3:
I've literally just got in from a run through the door and on this that's how committed I am. I've had a melon and I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1:
You look like the Milky Bar, kid.
Speaker 2:
Oh, I need a sunbed Well let me ask you both questions because I want to kick off today's topic, but I don't want to do it too soon because I've got some questions for both of you, because I was sitting at home, you know, just training this weekend, not doing much. But, mo, we haven't really talked about your um race, have we? We haven't talked about your race in um, where was it?
Speaker 3:
what born survivor?
Speaker 2:
born survivor.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I was sitting at home listening to you two having a bit of banter on who's hot oh yeah yeah, heard that we bring the banner that episode was dry until I stepped in which bit did you bring into?
Speaker 1:
I forget because, because you had a voice note, didn't he? Oh yeah, the review, the review.
Speaker 2:
I forget.
Speaker 1:
because I record so many things, I forget what day it is and what day things are coming out and whereabouts in space and time I am, but yes, I remember now. Mo sent a voice note.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so how was Born Survivor Mo. Congratulations on the podium.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it was good. I was a bit of an idiot, but apart from that I got on the podium, so I can't complain yeah, you failed to mention to everyone that you actually got lost standard standard mate.
Speaker 2:
I thought you were cheating.
Speaker 1:
I thought you were trying to find a career shortcut there it is.
Speaker 3:
It was a big shortcut as well. It was, yeah, not not what you want. Especially I was running. I really felt in like the best running shape I've been in. I was cruising. I was like, yeah, I'm ready to go whenever I need to. And then like, literally just about as I was thinking, right, it's time to really push now I get lost. And it just killed all momentum and then had to like go back to the drawing board and luckily I remembered I was still feeling good, so I just started running my ass off and because I didn't really care if I blew up, because I was like, well, it doesn't matter, because I'm losing now anyway. So I was like I'm just going to keep running hard. And I kept running hard and then next minute I'm like in sixth place, fifth place, fourth place. I'm like, oh, finn's just there with like 300 metres to go and with like 300 metres to go, and then got Finn at the end and that's that, I'm back on the podium.
Speaker 1:
Do you think if you hadn't got lost, you would have beaten Russell and Dan?
Speaker 3:
It's all hindsight, it's hard to say exactly, but I was Russ. We even started gaining on him as me and Finn as a pair, and the way I was feeling and I could see myself getting closer to them before I was getting lost and I started to bridge the gap because I started to think, oh, I've got a bit more in the tank here. So I mean you can't say definitely, Just say it.
Speaker 2:
It would have been definitely closer I don't think Dan.
Speaker 3:
I think Dan was too far.
Speaker 2:
So that's it, shout out, you would have beat Russ Call him out.
Speaker 3:
Go on, russ, I would have had you.
Speaker 2:
Call him out, he just wins it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, In the alternate universe right now. You got lost and I'm sitting second.
Speaker 2:
Any niggles, Any niggles Mo.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I couldn't run all last week. Well, I got any niggles mo from that. Yeah, I couldn't run all last week. I've got ill, I don't know what. That was a bit sh*t, but I think I just worked so hard and I've got a bit of an illness and then I had this shooting pain in my ribs all week so I could barely run over a mile. Um, that was fun, but I'm fine. I just ran six miles now felt good, a little bit speed work as well. So everything's been. I'm feeling back to normal.
Speaker 2:
Back back to it, back to it. We haven't. We didn't talk about things like that, pushing ourselves to the limit, how you push, how, how you come out afterwards because we've come out of races being really ill.
Speaker 3:
It's not the water, it's just how we've pushed ourselves yeah, I think your body just goes you, where you've worked so hard, your body almost just starts to shut down. And then, especially in our sport, where it's so dirty, your immune system gets low anyway, and then it's really easy just to pick up little things. Yeah, right, enough about me, let's talk about the european slayer slayer, that's me.
Speaker 2:
How was the OCR series. We keep banging on about it. You had a little trip out there with your little buddy.
Speaker 1:
That's it Me and Zach Harper. I was going to say we flew, but we didn't. We drove, we drove, and it wasn't a far drive, it was only what five hours, I think, door to door, so really really accessible race to get to Fantastic race put on by OCR Series. We do go on about them a lot. We say how good the race is and it does live up to it. I mean, they've changed the obstacle format a little bit so they're using the European system with the free bands, so you don't have the penalties at obstacles anymore, which was really really good.
Speaker 1:
Uh, it was a bit annoying because obviously the the marshals are european standard and they weren't letting anything fly. Uh, I lost two bands because, uh, well, basically missed the bell twice. But uh, yeah, the marsh, I mean I skimmed one of the bells and she didn't let me go. So, yeah, that was good. We had some really good competition there. Our favourite sort of European listener was over there Lenny. I forget his surname, in fact, I don't forget his surname, I'll just probably butcher it. It was good to see him and the European sort of athletes out there were running really strong and I think I was running quite strong myself.
Speaker 2:
It was good. It's a good weekend I was shocked.
Speaker 1:
I didn't realize that you had two failures. Yeah, yeah, I failed two obstacles, so I had to do two penalty loops wow and so that's that's the.
Speaker 2:
That's the max you can fail, isn't it on that system?
Speaker 1:
yeah, yeah, that's right, and luckily I mean being a 19k race. If you put enough effort down, you can either build a gap up, and I think because the it's not a massive race over there at the moment, so obviously the field's a little bit more spread apart as you get to that sort of later distance. So that definitely helped because if it was a big, big race where you had lots of people at the same level as me, there would have been more people to capitalize on my mistakes. So it was quite lucky in that respect. But the guys behind me and and ahead of me were doing so well. I don't think I would have changed positions if I hadn't have made the failures, but it definitely affected my time.
Speaker 1:
So the penalty was horrible as well. Have you ever done if anyone's ever done OCR series? One of the obstacles they sometimes have is that you get an elastic band around your ankles and you've got to try and like waddle around like a track bit. But that was the penalty. So you can imagine they let you run this one. So you you're trying to run but you're basically doing a speed walk to try and complete the penalty. So you can imagine, if anyone's coming, that you can see them and you're trying to put a speed walk on, like with duck feet going like only a couple of inches each time. So you're like giving maximum effort but you're just going nowhere. That needs to be filmed. It would have been quite an amusing penalty to watch and to have people pass you.
Speaker 2:
Sounds good, so is it everything you wanted to get out of it? Did you get everything you wanted out of it?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, because I basically wanted to get the entry and exit points on some European obstacles good. I just wanted to make sure I was coming into the obstacle strong and exiting the obstacle strong, and that's what I did, and it showed that I can't make mistakes on obstacles, because the marshalling is going to be on point. You know, I can't graze the floor, can't skim the bell. You need to make sure that you're going to complete the obstacles.
Speaker 1:
When I failed the pegboard, I should have just taken a couple more extra peg go like I basically went to swing for the bell, but I should have just made sure I completed it and got a little bit closer to the bell. So I was 100% sure I was going to hit it. And these are the things you need to do before major races, because if you don't do them in smaller races, that would have been a big race and I would have made the same mistake. So yeah, I've got everything I wanted out of it and I'm feeling good at the moment, which is a plus no, we you know we bang on about them being technically good races.
Speaker 2:
Like you need to be training hard to go to europe to do these races. Uh, now you've been to a 2024 one, is that still the case?
Speaker 1:
That is the case, this one was a little bit more. The obstacles were a little bit more easier than they have been in the past. So they had less I say less, they probably were missing one or two. They were still very technical races, but they were probably missing the extra one or two technical race. They didn't have a, a low rig, which they usually have every race, but then they did still have some technical well, quite a lot of technical obstacles, but they were quite spread out apart, so it was a very runner race. I mean, obstacles might have been about a kilometer apart each, each, each bit cool it was good, worth, worth the visit yeah, and I love going over to Europe.
Speaker 1:
The Europeans are so I mean they're obstacle game. The Belgians especially and the French, all of them guys that was over there their obstacle game's good and they just get in and out of obstacles really well.
Speaker 3:
They're practicing all the time they're just so used to it. That's the thing.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, the build quality is so much bigger than what we have over here, and that's even at their basic races. Their build quality is better. That's what we're lacking. We're lacking the build quality of what we have how was?
Speaker 2:
how was the field like was? Was it a stacked? How many people were in the elite field?
Speaker 1:
There was some really good guys there. So the three guys who won it I won't say the names because I forget, but one of them just came back from Abu Dhabi doing thingy the race out there All the main guys, yeah, they're all really top class athletes that run elite. One of them's a 220 marathon runner. Um, and then obviously it gets down to like your sort of age group, you guys, to at the top of their level, but yeah, yeah cool.
Speaker 2:
Well, you both sound like you had a great weekend. Yeah, I was just recovering still from doing hills of you. That's it. There were some hills. Mark dixon still can do hills, although we beat him, but we won't say anything about it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, we just kicked his ass basically, it was a bit slow that day. Do you know what he's always slow. I think it's really starting to catch up to him. Yeah, that age, yeah, seven now, and he see those wrinkles yeah, uh, I actually have, so we're going to do.
Speaker 2:
Listener submitted questions as helping us with our topics and we discussed that. We had a topic that we wanted to talk about, which was a question.
Speaker 3:
I have no idea what the topic is, by the way.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I know we haven't said it yet. I've actually got a question from Ferg which is more of a practical question. If you're up for something a bit practical where we can stop, Does he want to know how to dance? Yeah, he wants to see Mo dance he wants to know how to dance.
Speaker 1:
He's gone, he's getting ready. He's getting ready for this.
Speaker 2:
He's getting warmed up. I wouldn't put that on Mo. I wouldn't put a jumper on right now. We on mo. I wouldn't put a jumper on right now. We want you to river dance in a minute. I wouldn't put a jumper on because this question is if you guys are up for it.
Speaker 1:
How?
Speaker 3:
many press-ups can you do in 60 seconds? In 60 seconds?
Speaker 2:
yeah mo, you're up first, but no, it's like I don't know no this is a practice practical, get down, give me 60 oh, we're doing yeah.
Speaker 3:
That's not really good content for the audio listeners.
Speaker 2:
Huh.
Speaker 3:
It's not really good audio content.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, but you can pause it and then just tell me how many you did.
Speaker 3:
Okay, let's pretend to pause Pause. Are you going to go do 60 press-ups then?
Speaker 1:
No, I'm just going to say I did that. That's all I was going to say 100.
Speaker 2:
Right, ferg. Ferg, if you're listening, these guys are not keen, so just ask them to do press-ups the next time we see them.
Speaker 3:
We'll do them next time. We're all together.
Speaker 2:
Okay, yeah, actually, yeah, we will do the test for Ferg three of us together.
Speaker 1:
I actually can't do very, very many press-ups.
Speaker 2:
Neither can Mo Neither can I?
Speaker 1:
I very many press-ups. Neither can Mo, neither can I. I'm terrible at press-ups. I think like I try and do 50 every morning, but even when I get to like 40, I just start losing it. But I've got really long arms. It's a genetic thing.
Speaker 3:
Well, darren is quite good at press-ups, but I did beat him in the two-minute press-up challenge and he hasn't beat me to this day. So in all that smack talk about me not being good at press-ups, he is also not proven in the field of press-ups.
Speaker 2:
I am proven. I was coming back from eight weeks off of doing nothing. I was just growing hair.
Speaker 3:
I was just going to say you're like that racer that in training looks amazing but just can't put it together in a race. You just bottle Bottle.
Speaker 2:
I haven't bottled a race.
Speaker 3:
Well, you bottled the push-up challenge.
Speaker 2:
That wasn't a race, was it? Hey, I've got a fifth and a second. I'm happy, and then I'm going to get a first at the weekend.
Speaker 3:
So is that today's topic, or have you actually no?
Speaker 2:
no, no, sorry, so that was. That was me trying to put a bit of practicality, you know, a bit of fun bit of a spin on the podcast, but you two just uh, who pooed it? Essentially is, the question is how is best to pace for a race, how to pace OCR?
Speaker 1:
I love this question because this is a difficult one. Not a difficult one to answer, but a difficult one to explain this is very varied, exactly.
Speaker 3:
So how? How do you want to split this up? Do we want to talk about race distances first, or we do want to go generic and just say, like starting out OCR, this is how you want to try and attack your first race.
Speaker 2:
If we want to be giving this podcast to listeners that are just starting OCR, let's do it as kind of like how to manage your expectations of the pace you're going to do maybe your first OCR. And then we can go into actually how we pace now, because we have a very like our pacing strategies are quite drilled down and we do really think about them now, but and they are very different- yeah extremely different.
Speaker 2:
But when I first started doing OCR and the same of you guys like, wow, did it take longer than I thought it was going to be? Because the pace is just so different than anything you've ever known.
Speaker 1:
Especially, yeah, especially sort of, especially when you think you're doing a short race. It's like what, yeah, do?
Speaker 2:
you know this also helps if we talk about it from new people coming into OCR and how to pace it. It also helps their spectators understand how long they've got to wait in the field for.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's only 10k. Come and watch, I'll be an hour.
Speaker 2:
I think we can cover off new people going into OCR quite quickly from a pacing point of view, because it's expectation management rather than race strategy.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, you definitely just need to expect to know that you're not going to be doing the pace that you've probably been running at usually well, I was.
Speaker 2:
I actually got my strava up before this and I was looking back at races that I did in like 2014. I my average pace for say this was um the suffering race. So I think it was about 10k was a 15 minute mile yeah, that's that's about right, yeah, yeah yeah and and I was running in between, but that is still 15 minute mile and how fast do you think you was at that time?
Speaker 3:
like what would your road hp?
Speaker 2:
eight and a half nine minute mile that's about right. I'd say yeah, so you're adding on expectation management. If you're running eight about five minutes yeah, add on another, no be seven minutes double it almost we're just saying double it. So if you're right, if you can comfortably do an eight minute mile for 10k, your expectation to get through a 10k obstacle course race is doubling it. And we said we actually said that in the past, didn't we?
Speaker 3:
yeah, double the time, double the yeah well, I think if you took let's just take the spartan system, for example just because it's probably the most thought out system in terms of distance, I'm the most famous system.
Speaker 1:
We can use that as a guide, actually, because most people have done a Spartan and we get the obstacles right, can't we?
Speaker 3:
So Spartan sprint is a 5K, I'd say. Normally that's taking you around your 10K time, maybe a bit over. Spartan super is a 10k. That's going to be closer to your half marathon time if you've done one or there and thereabouts. And then I'd say the beast which is a half marathon is you're probably looking at a marathon time, if not a little bit longer, and that's normally kind of. Obviously it's very rough because OCR is not always the same, but that's where I find, especially beginners, roughly where your pace is going to be.
Speaker 2:
You know what I'm laughing at. Imagine someone new picking this podcast up on Saturday morning got their dad in the car on their way to Spartan Henley and they've told him it only be half an hour. It's only a 5k and they're listening to this and they're hearing us saying that, sorry, you're going to be there for at least an hour and a half an hour to be fair, that's got a possibility because they'd be like, oh, we could listen to this one.
Speaker 1:
It tells us how to pace for an OCR and we're on our way to do one switching it off quickly. No no game plan out the window yeah, yeah, we'll be back in time for dinner.
Speaker 2:
Let's get the late wave, the amount of the amount of times I've asked my family to come watch me, and and do you know what I've? Now that I'm quicker, they still don't believe me that they won't be there for long, because I've. I've fooled them so many times when I first started OCR to come watch me that they're just scarred from it. Now they don't want to sit in the field for four hours Well, six hours when we did rat race so they don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:
I get it.
Speaker 2:
So do you think it is that simple to manage expectations? Someone to pace.
Speaker 3:
I think that's a rough guideline of how long it's going to take you. I think, in terms of actually pacing and putting a strategy together, I would always especially new people advise just to try and move in between obstacles, and when I mean that, I mean even if it's a shuffle run or just a little like pigeon step jog, that's going to speed things up for you and not really kill you off. But if you need to walk, walk. Don't worry about time, especially if it's your first couple of races. I'd say, pacing-wise, just whatever feels comfortable in that moment. If you've just done an obstacle and you're blowing out your ass because you've been a bit compromised and you're not used to it, take that, walk out of the obstacle.
Speaker 1:
There's nothing wrong with that yeah, that's right dude, especially as especially as a newbie, because you're probably going there for fun anyway, so you can have a bit more fun, take a bit well, you can even take a bit of time to recover after the obstacle, as well as not as as well as moving, though, you could probably just take a little, a little breather, have something to eat at a water station probably some harry bow as well and then just get moving again, because you're just trying to get through the course. The whole point of doing your first obstacle race, or if you were starting out is to complete the course yeah, take away pacing pressure.
Speaker 2:
If you're doing your first one, don't worry about your pace. That's the best way to do your first ACR, because if you haven't done one before and you haven't done a few, you haven't experienced yet enough to put a pacing strategy into your racing. You need to know how your body is going to be affected by the compromised running and the obstacles before you can actually understand how your pace should be. In obstacle course racing it is so different and I would say, yeah, you walk into obstacles, you walk out of obstacles. Get, you get your heart rate down after you do an obstacle and then go back into your run. That's, that's the easiest way to enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. Or else, if you did one thing I say, if you, if you're newbie, and you go into an obstacle quick and then you go out of it quick and you do that in the first few, you might end up actually spoiling your latter half of your race because you'll be you'll be very tired that can get very nasty very quickly it's actually funny.
Speaker 1:
I was talking to zach about this over the weekend, about some newbies, and because we was talking about how, if you we're going to use spartan as an example but if you like, fail a lot of obstacles in spartan, especially still in the open running because they still use burpees you might be ending up doing quite a lot of burpees. So if you're quite new to exercising and taking part in sport and you fail an obstacle, you're probably going to be doing twice as much work as you're probably used to, because you're going to have to do some burpees as well. You don't want, you don't have to, but you're probably going to end up doing quite a few burpees as well, which aren't easy. So it's going to make things longer.
Speaker 2:
So what we're saying? We're pacing for newbies or new people, new people coming into the obstacle course, beginners that are just in the open way. Take your time Enjoy it. Take your time yeah, have fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Throw that clock away.
Speaker 2:
How did let's could this speak like we are about to? You know, I want to. I actually want to do it quicker this time. I actually want to maybe be a bit competitive, or want to be competitive with myself. Not necessarily competitive, you know everyone talks about elites and age group but just competitive yourself. How did you start to understand your, your body and the paces you would have to put down in obstacle course racing? Was there? Did anything click?
Speaker 3:
I mean you've got to make the first mistake that everyone makes and it's just go off too hard and realise, oh, this isn't a road race, or oh, this is different Because our pacing is not the same as the roads, or not the same as your traditional running races, even trail, just because of the compromise aspect, people don't realise how much that can actually affect you, especially in the beginning. So maybe, but maybe you need to go off quick to start.
Speaker 2:
Maybe you need to make that mistake. That's how most of us learn. I think you learn through failure and that's the best way. I've the amount of obstacle course races I've walked and died at the end, and the second half of them is crazy yeah, yeah, I think it's a baptism of fire that sort of.
Speaker 1:
You get out the gate really hot and well, not so much just hot. You go against what sort of pace you think you should be doing. You just run a bit hard and at the start of a race it feels easy, feels so easy, feels comfortable. You think, yeah, I've got this, I've done a bit of, I've put in a little bit of work and I'm ready for this. I want to see where I'm at. And then, all of a sudden, the race does hit. It hits like a wet fish in the face and you just end up being like whoa, hang on a minute. When did I get tired?
Speaker 2:
do you know? Do you know? The worst mistake is that you, you run a pace when you first start running ocr. You run the pace that you've been training in. Yet the mistake you've made is you actually haven't trained in the same terrain and hills and distance as the obstacle course race. I'm speaking from loads of experience here, and I've said it in previous episodes, that I was training at a flat woodland and then I went and done man versus mountain up Snowdon and I went at the same pace. That is a disaster waiting to happen if you do that. So expect that you're not going to understand the terrain. So hold something back slightly, pace wise, ready for something to hit?
Speaker 3:
you wait, prepare for the fish in the face yeah, and I think if you're still not ready for that kind of baptism of fire, just whatever you've been kind of working on on your traditional running if that's where you come from I'd put probably two, three, maybe even four minutes on that slow right down but keep moving. Especially if you want to just up that competitive edge. You're going to benefit more from keep moving in between obstacles and just staying consistent, rather than going off like a rocket and then the last 2k you just have to walk because you're cramping or you just can't sustain anything and you're starting to fail obstacles because you're even more tired. So I think, just be consistent and move maybe.
Speaker 1:
Then do you think when you first start being competitive, like getting into your first race do you think, if you think right, I'm doing a 10k race, you should think right, I'm going to race it at the pace that I'm going to run a 20k race yeah, yeah, exactly that, exactly that.
Speaker 2:
That's that was the breakthrough I had. Yeah, that it feels so weird because you're you feel like you're running slow. But then when an obstacle hits you, you're like you every time an obstacle hits you, you feel like you're running slow, but then when an obstacle hits you, you're like every time an obstacle hits you, you feel like, no, actually I'm running right pace. Another obstacle hits you. Like okay, this pace is okay. Another obstacle I'm actually getting tired at this slow pace. Another obstacle hits you and then it's like actually I've got to struggle to keep this slow pace.
Speaker 2:
Like when the obstacles start hitting you, you realize that the pace you started out at is is the right one, and I suppose most people's goals when they first start doing ocr is you'll get to the stage where you'll do one, two, maybe, maybe five and you've walked the last part where your family and everyone's been watching you and you know, waiting four hours for you to come to the end and you're walking at the end. Next one you get to. Your goal might be to I don't. I want to walk less. So you need to make sure your pacing gets right to do those strategies. My one was my one was walking less. I even to these to this day. I'm even impressed I haven't walked once, which is just such a strange, because that that was my biggest goal when I first started ocr was I just don't want to.
Speaker 3:
I don't want to walk at any, any time yeah, it's actually quite a realistic goal to have as well and obviously I think people don't understand because it is a quote-unquote running race or foot racing away people's egos just think walking is the enemy and to a lot of people you are going to end up walking at some point just because of the stresses on your body to actually maintain a good running cadence and actually running properly and doing the obstacles. People don't realise how much the obstacles are going to take it out of you until they do it, and then you'll know, and then you'll realise maybe I should. In the moment you'll be like I need to walk.
Speaker 2:
Oh, you'll know when to walk because you can't run the cramp. Everything sets in, doesn't it? Oh, the cramp, yeah, and and cramp people asked. People have asked me a few times about what is cramp and I'll do any electrolytes and things and I always say I used to think that, but 90 of the time it's just you're not conditioned to, yeah, you're not weak it is just because you haven't done this you haven't put your.
Speaker 1:
How often do you go for a run and you gotta kick your leg above your head to get over a bloody wall? You don't do that. You don't run on like almost vertical terrain where someone's put a wall in. You've got to run up it, you.
Speaker 2:
You caught your calves, your cords, nothing's used to that yeah, that's the beauty of obstacle course racing because, no matter if you're no, 90 of people aren't training on obstacle course races like we do. They might be doing a half marathon, might have done the london marathon, then they want to sign up for nuts as a different challenge. So their their pacing strategy is they. They aren't going to have a pacing strategy. But what we're saying to you, if you're listening to this podcast, is that go out slow, go like a slow run, because even though that feels super easy right now and you may feel you're going super slow, it won't feel like that at the end easy right now and you may feel you're going super slow, it won't feel like that at the end.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, do you know what? It's funny? Because I still. I went off that track at one point in my sort of training career and I thought I was because I was training I could run better and run harder. But I've resorted back to that same technique because it just works. Steady is fast in this sport.
Speaker 3:
It's not about. You have to be obviously fast at the top level, but even then, boys, they're not running what you'd run. That is their steady run. They're not going to what they can do in a different style of race.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, they're not putting down their 5k pace in an obstacle course race. They're probably even holding back two minute mile in an obstacle course race. They're. They're probably even holding back two minute mile more on on obstacle course racing than what they can do in 5k. Yeah, they're being compromised. And if they've got a hold back two minute mile more on obstacle course race, then what's the what? What's the humans of us all got to do? We've got to hold back. We just said seven minutes. So if you've got Henley Beast, it's Beast this weekend, isn't it? And there's a Super, or is it Sprint as well?
Speaker 3:
I think there's a Super.
Speaker 2:
Super. Yeah. So there's quite long races and then you've got Nuclear as well. So if it's your first time getting out there, having fun, just have fun. You're getting out there. Your aim for like me is to not walk, go super slow, like like your very slow run start. Hopefully that will help you to run the whole course. Let's get into pacing to for like, not complete, but to compete.
Speaker 3:
More age group.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
So if you, if you turning up, you sign up for nuclear. This is your third one. You really like the idea of challenge cup. You now want to, actually you want to put down some time, Are?
Speaker 2:
we taking this from guys that have done obstacle racing before, so you've got a bit of a bit of background to it I think they just take this as a competitive person, because I think people are stepping into the sport who are competitive like high rocks at the minute. People that are very fit and gym gym goers are just stepping into high rocks and then just really pushing themselves. So there's gonna be a lot of people this weekend with spartan may not have done ocr but really want to push themselves. I think let's let's introduce a pacing strategy for them. So it is like your age group and your competitive racers who are starting in the sport so I think a lot of what we've just said carries over.
Speaker 3:
You're still going to have to run a little bit slower. I think if you're fit and you've done a few races and you kind of you know what the feelings are going to be like, you can get away with speeding up on certain flat bits of ground and taking downhills a little bit quicker and you could be a little bit more risky. But again, you just need to understand what that risk is.
Speaker 1:
Yeah if you're just coming in competitive, I think you do need to play to your strengths. So if you feel as if you're quite a good person who might get through the obstacles, well, I do think you should really try and attack those specific bits where you feel as if you're quite a good person who might get through the obstacles, well, I do think you should really try and attack those specific bits where you feel as if your strengths are. So, if it is obstacles, maybe just tap the obstacles and get out of them better than you probably should. If you're probably a better runner than just take your time on the obstacles. If you think you're a better hill runner, push a little bit on the hills just to make up that little bit of extra ground on the bits that you probably are going to make your ground up on yeah, I like that advice because this is people that may not have done a lot of technical training, so even things like the multi-rig at spartan might catch them out.
Speaker 2:
So, pick, pick your places to use your fitness. So, carries, use your fitness there, put it in. Might as well, put it in hard, like go. That's quite an easy thing for you to do. Do run as hard as you can at that point. Make time in the obstacles that you're not as proficient at, because you might. Because, let's be honest, if you're new to the competitive field, you're going to get caught out at a very technical obstacle and you might fail. It like failure is going to happen. We've said that.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, failure happens to the best of us. Yeah, I mean we.
Speaker 2:
We could fail anything anytime, but make your time where you can. That's what we're saying, aren't we?
Speaker 3:
yeah, I think you almost treat it like a fartlek session, but just with your strengths. So your strengths are your intervals, that's where you put the time in, and then your recovery is the stuff that you're not very or not as confident in, and that's where you put the time in. And then your recovery is the stuff that you're not very or not as confident in, and that's where you try and rest, recover, breathe as much as you need to, and then you go again. Stank flick.
Speaker 2:
You're right about the fart lick, if anyone, if hopefully everyone, understands that. But when you see an obstacle, which is a rig, and you're running hard and you've got there and you've not seen rigs before, but you're a runner because there's a lot of trail runners that do ocr, now slow down, get your heart rate as much down as possible. Don't worry about you, don't need to speed into it. Slow down, get your heart rate down, then go into the obstacle, then afterwards your heart rate's going to be up. Get your heart rate down, just feel your legs out then, but get back to your pace. That's the. That's the best way, I'd say. Someone who's strong uh well, anyone who's been training wants to be competitive but doesn't really have the experience of ocr, that's the best way to do it in a safe way. You're going to feel very good from that. Don't don't be overconfident, because obstacles will catch you out. Don't underestimate them, especially hanging.
Speaker 3:
Underestimate it yeah, don't underestimate anything yeah, I think especially I mean we've talked about spartan today but especially in a race like spartan, if you feel like you're the runner type and you feel like that is where your strengths really lie, you're going to have time to run because, at the end of the day, our sport is 90% running. So that's even more reason to just slow down, because you don't need to rush, because you've got time to make up even in a short race you've got time to make up.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, so surprised how much time you've got in a short race to make up it's still a 30 minute race yeah, I know that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:
Isn't it like if you, if I, was to say you're going to go out and do a half marathon, even the fittest person would do what? Yeah, the half marathon probably average time is probably like 115 120 for a very fit person who wants to be competitive. You're still going to be doing the Spartan Beast in about hour 50, nearly two hours. So there's still a lot more left in the race. That's what. That's the only thing I'm trying to get out of this for, for anyone who really is pushing themselves, there's a lot left. There's a lot, lot left. A lot can happen as well. So you, even like in a running race, you see someone's ahead of you and they're getting away from you. Just keep imagining that they're going to. They might fail at one point. So you just got to keep your pace, keep your pace consistent and something may happen to them. Not that I would ever want anyone to fail, but obviously that does happen.
Speaker 1:
That's the beauty of an obstacle race you can never give up.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's the beauty of an obstacle race you can never give up.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, even if you can't see it, you can never, ever give up.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, never give up the fight. No, I think that's another thing that happens in our sport as well is out of sight, out of mind. Don't let people get out of sight, because that's where things start getting tricky. If you can't see people, it makes it really hard, especially if you're being competitive and you're trying to race. It makes it hard to race if you don't know what you're racing. So try and use people, keep people in your sights, keep people around you and then, if it feels like it's getting too much, then maybe back off. But or use that same strategy to your advantage.
Speaker 3:
If you think I'm a strong runner and you're next to someone, that's blowing. But they, they're better obstacles than you put some time into on the run. Get rid of them and then we go again. Rest on the obstacles. Same. If you're a good obstacle athlete, make a point to beat these people on the obstacles. Don't just fanny around on the obstacles because you're scared. It's going to impact your running. If you think, oh, I'm a good obstacle athlete, or even if I'm a good carrier, make that point. Prove the point. Okay, I'm a good obstacle athlete. Or even if I'm a good carrier, make that point, prove the point. Okay, I'm going to beat you on this obstacle every single time, and then maybe you beat me on the running, but at least I'm getting in your head a little bit see this.
Speaker 1:
This is why I love obstacle racing. There's not a single sport in the world where this happens, where that happens. There's not none of. None of them do, because not even not even like the highx or decafits and things, because people practice them same movements all the time. But obstacle racing is so varied that you don't get that battle of difference. It could happen. It can change so much. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do in your training. Just the slightest thing can make a difference and I love that about it, yeah, and the other thing is the people like how?
Speaker 2:
how are people, how do you guys use what our watches, don't we? We use that to to know our pace. Like don't tend to look at it too much now because I know it by my body, but I think people that are getting into pacing, getting into trying to figure out how they stay consistent in that pace, they would be using their watch, but I think it's. It's quite hard to to tell someone how to pace when they're not. They don't know maybe what their max, their like 10k effort is, or time trialed something to see what their pace is like. Because we're trying to tell you, add seven minutes onto it or or add at least two minutes onto your pace, but if you don't know it, this can be very difficult to pace. So the other way to do it is just feel comfortable, feel, feel like you're running reserved, because the obstacles will take that reserve from you yeah and people go out hot as well people go out following people.
Speaker 1:
That's the worst thing, yeah, just because they run off like bullets yeah at the start doesn't mean they're going to be there for a while. There's only a few people in this sport that I've ever met that can stay where they are. Yeah, from the beginning.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, doesn't happen. Like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's everyone racing this weekend. Just remember, if someone's gone, shot out as quickly as possible you might see them a bit later, like there's a good chance. Don't panic, that's another thing. At the start, you know your body, you know you're going to give everything. Don't panic about giving it within the first 10 seconds. You're going to come, yeah you're only race.
Speaker 1:
Your biggest competitor is yourself and you're only ever racing yourself. So a pain in the arse person who I dislike the president gave me that advice once said it's your own race, it's your own race. I remember saying he said it to me once. James burton, never forget it. Good bit of advice that's the way.
Speaker 2:
That's the reason I love ocr. That's why I moved to ocr, because I'm I'm such a driven person, I want to be the best, but it's actually like I'm being competitive with myself. And the thing is, if you can take pressure away from yourself from a pacing strategy on the race and you can say that to yourself, look, today, if I come away and I feel like I've given everything on there, doesn't matter where the place, I've come, I've, I've, I've beat myself like I've been competitive with myself and I've won and I love beating myself I think and that's the point about watches as well, obviously, especially I mean, we've talked a lot about the runner coming into this especially if you are that person and you are coming from a running background, I'd almost forget about your watch, don't you?
Speaker 3:
don't? You don't need to look at pacing, you don't need. I'd go all based on your rpe.
Speaker 3:
I wouldn't worry about your rate of or preserved perceived physical education is no perceived exertion yeah I'd go all based on that, on how you're feeling in the moment, because we've all been there where you go out running six minute miles oh yeah, this is great. And then the next minute you're running nine minute miles, feeling like you're having an asthma attack and it's like and it is a weird feeling as well, especially when we train so fast, because most people don't train always the paces they're running, especially if you're a runner. So just don't worry, go based on your breathing, based on how you're feeling, and suffer a bit if you want to suffer, because you'll need to suffer to do well, but you know your limits as much as you can.
Speaker 1:
Build into that suffering.
Speaker 3:
But if you are using your watch. A good example or I'll give you my example is that when I look at a race, every mile when it ticks I'll look down. I won't look at pacing ever. I'll look at my mileage and what I'm ticking. So I know for me personally, and obviously it's personal, but around eight minute miles to nine minute miles in an ocr race means I'm moving well and that that doesn't, that's obviously because it's the mile as well, so that's including obstacles.
Speaker 3:
So that probably means for me I'm probably running in the sixes yes, so you'll start to get used to what that looks like for you, and it might be every mile. I want to try and be around kind of I don't know, 15 minute miles, like down what's at the start, or 11 minute miles, whatever that be. Use that's a good guideline. If you do want an actual number pace strategy, rather than looking at the pace in between obstacles, because that's going to vary, I'd look at the overall mileage and kind of work out what that looks like, and obviously that will change slightly based on the obstacles and the amount of obstacles in that section. But it's a rough idea of oh okay, I'm running well I agree it's.
Speaker 2:
It's actually been quite consistent. Depend irrelevant of the obstacle course races I've done mo. When I first started out, 15, 13 to 15 minute mile was consistently the same. Even if it was the suffering, whether it was the nuts challenge can't remember what other ones it did, like tough mother it was it ended up being the same. So, yeah, that's a really good way to for you to pace if you've got a watch yeah, love that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and you can. You can sort of tick it off on the mile as well. If you know you've done quite a lot of obstacles in that mile, you could just say to yourself in your head, oh, it's going to be a little bit more because it's been an obstacle, heavy mile should we, uh, open up the floor to how we currently pace?
Speaker 2:
yeah, yeah, because I think I, I the I won't go through how we've got to where we are now, because that is actually everything we've just spoken about. That is pretty, I'd say. That's how I've got to where I am. I think I've failed miserably many a time and had to stop and walk. I've, yeah, done all of it, tried to try to push really hard on my strengths and then died miserably as well. So, okay, done, done it all, and. But the difference we do is, every time that we fail at a pacing strategy, we write it down, we train it, we perfect it, we build a new pacing strategy yeah we try to learn new, new technique, technique, we try to learn.
Speaker 1:
Learn new bits every time as well.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, no, you I was going to ask you a question. You, I was going to ask you to go first with your current pacing strategy and then maybe how you've developed to get there, because we both all three of us know that you started out being a very hot out the gates racer, and you still are, but there's adaptations you've made to that pacing strategy yeah, I'm your typical aggressive racer that wants to get out in front and I like to lead.
Speaker 3:
That's the position I like to be in. I'm not a chaser, I don't. It doesn't give me anything, I don't run well off of that. So now I know that about myself. I have to find my ways to get near the front and that's it has to be how it is. But yeah, you're right, darren, the learning curve for that was a lot of blowing up and a lot of just getting out winning the first two miles and then coming 10th because I've just died a miserable death. So it's, it's a lot of kind of. For me. Now it'll be race dependent as well and I structure my pacing around what the race looks like. But because my main goal or my main feeling in a race is I like to be near the front, that's how I start my strategy. So Born Survivor is a good example looking at that race.
Speaker 3:
So I recce'd the course in the morning and I saw to be near the front. It got quite narrow quite quickly, so it was just a case of it's gonna have to hurt in the first 2k and I'm gonna have to be near the front and I suck it up until I get to a point where I can start to relax. And that's exactly what happened. Um, it did start to narrow and then I had. I had no choice. It had to be okay, we're gonna suffer a bit. And then you have to make the mental choice of okay, this is gonna hurt and I've just got to bear with it. And if I don't, well, that's fine, maybe try a new strategy. But that was a typical race where you just have to hurt.
Speaker 3:
You then look at other races where you think, okay, this race is going to be a bit slower, like a nuts, for example. It's a slow race really and I look at okay, to be near the front, I just need to be on on the shoulder or around kind of the top four and try and attack the obstacles. That's where I'm making my difference. I'm quite fortunate where I feel like my ability to run and my ability to obstacles are quite similar, so I can kind of have that choice. But it's always race dependent. I don't know how you boys feel, but I'm always looking at the race, how the race works, and then I know exactly how I like to race. So I find the how can I get to that position?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think I'd like to go before you start shifts make Mo made a good point about, but I want to go back to that because it's the fundamentals of understanding the race will dictate my pacing strategy. So, irrelevant of how I've learned and got to my current pacing strategy, I will be weather dependent, shoe dependent, terrain dependent, the uh, the map dependent, where the technical obstacles are on the map, where there's big running sections on the map. That all these things, these variables, come into how I'm going to pace the race. Because we are so fortunate well fortunate, or just hard working that we've got to a place in our fitness that we have the we can make choices, like we're not just going to go out there, like you said, mo, like we don't always just go out there and just suffer, but we're going out there to make suffering choices because the race, we can do that now with our fitness. Do you agree?
Speaker 3:
yeah, we decide when we hurt more yeah nine times out of ten.
Speaker 3:
There's always that time where you get into a race a bit too early than you wanted to, or something quite goes wrong, or you just have to decide. It's born survivor again when I got lost. I know we've talked about it already, but that's exactly that moment of I'm just gonna have to lean into this. I've lost time. So this is the time where any plan goes out the window and it's just hard work. But you're right now. We are fortunate, where we can pick and choose our battles and if we know there's a tough rig going up, we can think well, we'll put our kick in. Afterwards we can settle now and just try and get our heart rate down.
Speaker 2:
Ships. What about you? What mistakes and changes have you made to get to the strategy, and what strategy are you currently at?
Speaker 1:
I think, very similar to Mo, except very different from Mo, because Mo likes to get off hot and he can hold it. I am completely the opposite. If I go off too hot, I will blow up big time. I can't get back. In fact I've said to you plenty of times I can't surge and I can't hit hard. So I have to maintain my effort consistently at the same sort of level. I can't go, I can't go off hard. So I I've learned over the years that I have to just ease myself into every effort that I do, because that's just the way I am as a racer I've never seen you blow up in a race, though when, when have you done that?
Speaker 1:
at the beginning, when I try and go off too hard. It's just. I you know, yeah, I just have to slow down, I slow down and I go back to a pace right, go back to my endurance pace so you're not not in the traditional sense of blowing up.
Speaker 2:
You know walking and stopping you.
Speaker 1:
You're going back to a slow running pace yeah, I could hold a slow running pace all day, every day, but I can't. I can't every day, but I can't hold a fast pace. I can't hold a competitive pace, let's say, forever, and it's one of the things I still struggle with now. But I have to learn my effort and if I'm running in a competitive race, I'll never go off at the start with the guys at the front, because if I run at that pace I know I'll blow up. But if I chase that pace those guys, I'm already running faster than I probably am or should be sorry. So therefore I'm already giving more effort. But because I know that I'm keeping it easy, I'm already running fast. That make sense.
Speaker 2:
I think so.
Speaker 1:
So I'm a chaser, because I know if I'm chasing, I'm already running hard.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, you stay the same and let people fall into your trap.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I try and reel people in.
Speaker 3:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
I'm a lure. I'm a lure, you let them kill their own race and then Capitalise yeah, I mean I would love to, I mean I am trying to work a bit more on getting out harder and surgeons, especially Surgeons, are the thing that I really want to try and develop. Let's say, but yeah, that's because I know my body now, I know how I race and I know my strengths and weaknesses, a bit like you two.
Speaker 2:
That's where it's hard for us to describe. If someone asks you, how do you pace, yeah, I've got, I've got pacing strategies. But when, when they say go, I just know.
Speaker 1:
Now, I just know how I feel yeah, oh yeah, and it's like within two seconds from that gun going off. You're like right, I'm feeling good enough to hold my level of fitness.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I do use my watch now and again though I'm still in a race though Like I use it to, maybe I use it in the wrong way. I use it to kind of tell me, like, if I'm pushing hard enough or if I've gone off with the pack too quickly because I wouldn't want to blow up. Do you ever do that.
Speaker 1:
No, I only ever use my watch now for nutrition.
Speaker 2:
Oh right.
Speaker 1:
Timing, time and nutrition and to see what the mileage is. So I've got half an idea of how much I've got left.
Speaker 3:
No, I'm with you, darren. So I'll use it as almost a limiter, because I know what I can run on track and I know what I can run on the roads. So if I'm running at that level or quicker I'm really f*cking up. So I don't necessarily use it to see if I'm too slow, because I don't care about, I'll happily run. If I'm winning a race and I'm running eight minute miles, I don't care, like cool, I'll do that.
Speaker 1:
But if I'm in a position where I'm running five and a half minute miles, I'll probably look and go okay, I need to back off here because this is too quick, see, because that's because that's because I'm the opposite way around, though, because because I'm easing into it and I'm looking at time and how far I've got left, if I've got a less further to go, then I can afford to try and surge or try and put a little bit of effort in, because I think, oh, I'm basically racing against the clock to see how much time left I've got, but you guys are going out against the clock to see if you can beat the clock yeah, see, I I will use time as a guy, or miles as a guideline, but you know what our sport's like it's never measured right, so it is a real rough guideline.
Speaker 3:
But I will use also my time for fueling. That's another big thing. I'll use my watch for fuel. Um, it doesn't really come into play strategies, but I'll. I'll, uh, every kind of half hour, whatever it is, I'll that's another you just said.
Speaker 2:
The most is the funniest thing about all of this. It contradicts everything. We've just said, that the ocr is just never the same distance yeah, never look at this.
Speaker 1:
How do you, how do you pay something that?
Speaker 2:
Don't tell them that. No, no, no, yeah, yeah, it's 10k, it's 10k, it's 10k. Go and you watch 15k. What Where'd that come from?
Speaker 1:
You've only got three miles left to go. You go around the corner and it's like that was eight miles ago.
Speaker 2:
I know this is only a small problem at the minute but it will become a big problem as this sport progresses and we'll be like nine years old saying I told you so. But it is so frustrating when distances aren't correct, when we're trying to pace to get the best out of ourselves. It is the most frustrating thing ever.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I think it is getting better. I do think, most recently, especially, more of the races I'm doing are very similar, but I'll always go back to that sprint where I don't know how they f*cked this up. But instead of running well, 5K, which is what? 3.2 miles, 3.1 miles, whatever it is we ended up running nearly six, yeah, five, six miles it was.
Speaker 3:
Like so pacing on a watch or looking at distance on a watch, trying to pace to that not always the best idea, because I did that race and I kicked at the two mile mark but I still got three miles to go.
Speaker 2:
I was with you and that's the craziest thing. It's the first time. It was about two years ago now, but it's the first time I was ahead of Mo and I knew it was 5k. So I knew we had like we only had like a k left, not even that. And I thought, right, I've got to keep this. Mo's literally just gone past me. So I'm thinking, right, I'm actually doing really well, it's the end. There was another two miles left.
Speaker 3:
It was crazy and I died a horrible death.
Speaker 1:
So I proper put a surge in because I was behind everyone yeah, that's the kind of race that I'd do well at, because I'd be like, oh, I backed off a little bit and then I'm like, oh, hang on a minute, these guys have died, everyone died though, like everyone died my, my.
Speaker 2:
Thing though with me is that I'm the most I can be, so influenced by other people. Um, yeah, and the funny thing is is that I've got you two that I train with, so I feel like you've both influenced me and I'm a bit of a hybrid, or I will just choose one different, different strategy each race. So I've grown, grown up through OCR of being that walk, being walking. Right now I'm jogged all the way around. Right now I've got through it quicker so I'd actually pace that way into races. That's how I first got uh, through races.
Speaker 2:
But now I've chosen to race certain elements of them push at hard after obstacles, pushing obstacles, but I would always be the person that would hold my pace and, like you, ships. But I would surge because I love a surge after an obstacle. So it's a bit different. I think that's where I get would surge because I love a surge after an obstacle. So it's a bit different. I think that's where I get the the gap. I love a surge. But then, while training with mo more in the last few years, I've actually been starting out hot, like really hot at some races, like nuts mo, how hot was it that was. That was probably the hardest I've ever gone out didn't. Obviously I'd never. I haven't got the speed to hold it, but I just I do it for my own confidence, pardon, because I can hold it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
You've got to do them. You've got to pace differently. That's what I say with luxury. Luxury, you have the having options, but do it to make you feel good as well, because if you've got confidence in a race that can give you another half a second each mile of speed, so the nuts course.
Speaker 3:
I sprinted at the beginning to feel confident that I was going to do well in that course I do find generally as well in our sport, that once gaps are made in the beginning, eventually everyone settles to very similar paces. I don't know if it's just a uk thing because of we're all like quite good athletes, but there's a good bunch of us that are quite similar. But I've also seen it when I've gone abroad and it always seems once gaps are made in the beginning and there is outliers and I'd say, shipley, you are an outlier, but typically once gaps are made, most people end up in the same places. So I think that's, darren, sometimes you've played around with this as well is to get them gaps early.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
I think that does vary. I think the biggest difference is its obstacle density. On that, yeah, that's where that sort of distance in gaps appear, because if people break away hard at the start and they maintain that it can change quite a lot within obstacle density yeah, I, I agree I think I've made gaps and then held the pace.
Speaker 2:
But I have one thing that's still left for in my strategy is is to how much do I hold so I can kick at the end? Because that still is not in the locker, the kicking at the end I'm still, even though I feel like I'm pushing hard at the end. Remember nuclear uh challenge cup two years ago, mo, me and you were right neck and neck at the end, weren't we?
Speaker 2:
was it two years ago yeah, but I just yeah, I just couldn't kick that with that last bit. I was just dying. So I'm trying still to. How much do I hold in a race, still be competitive but then also be able to kick at the end? That is, that's still a test that I haven't been able to master.
Speaker 1:
That's also why we train.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
You know, we train hard so we can maintain the efforts that we can do in races better. That's all we're doing. We're not trying to run faster, we're just trying to maintain effort longer or more correct for that race, I think.
Speaker 3:
And a good like workout. Especially that we've done is when you're chasing each other or you're putting yourself like that one we did where we had different gaps or things like, where you're basically putting yourself in different race scenarios. It is simulation, is simulation. It is exactly what it says. You want to simulate positions in races. If you don't like being a chaser like I don't like to chase people I need to practice chasing it in training, just to understand how it works and get used to it. And if you don't like leading things, find someone a bit quicker than you and be like right, you're going to chase me and I'm going to try and lead, I'm going to try and win and beat and feel what that feeling feels like and feel just. So if you do get into that position in a race, you know exactly what you need to try and do.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, we're going to do a simulation, definitely for Euros, and I know now my pacing strategy for that simulation is full out send it. That is going to be my pacing strategy, because I want to not get on the obstacle because I literally cannot breathe. That's what I need to test.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I can't wait for that session.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, it's going to be horrible, but the thing is, the only way you're going to practice the horrible nature of a race is to simulate it exactly the same, and it's very hard to do that pacing, to build your pacing strategy, by yourself. I think you need someone to train with, to race with, who's going to be either racing with you or going to make help you ready for it. Hold you accountable. You said you're going to simulate the race. Therefore you should literally be dying in this session, in, in, and this is we're not. Obviously this sounds bad, saying you need to die in a session, but if that's the way you want to go in a race, On one or two sessions.
Speaker 3:
yes, On specific simulation sessions.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, not all the time Not all the time. No, yeah, don't do it enough, I think as well, because it is horrible. You may need to take two, three days off afterwards. But yeah, we've only done the fact. To be fair, I own a handful of times this year so far. I think we've done it in excluding races yeah, we haven't.
Speaker 1:
To be fair, this has been the only year. This has been the first year, sorry, where I've put less hard efforts in training. But I'm getting so much more out of my racing because I've learned my race pace better through training this year than I have in any other year and I'm able to hold a better pace through training that I've explored through training, training which I can put into a race yeah, you're saying that race, race pace is built in training, not in racing yeah, I think that's what I was saying yeah, it's true, though don't wait for the race to understand what your pacing strategy is.
Speaker 2:
If it's a strategy, it be tested.
Speaker 1:
Especially with what we've said before, as in the races aren't what you expect them to be.
Speaker 2:
No, so let's, let's finish up. I think we've we've gone through quite a lot there. Mo, what is? People won't hear this, so that, hopefully. So, before you race, what's your strategy at the weekend?
Speaker 3:
Well, well, it's more actually for me going to be a bit of a test. So, because it's not an A race, it's not a race that I want to do well in I always want to try and win, but I'm going to test some things as well. I haven't run a beast in a while and it's a good opportunity, especially this close to the Euros, just to see what my running can be like if I really put some big efforts in in between obstacles for a long duration. Um, so I'm going to start quite fast and just see what happens. Basically, I'm not going to be silly. I'm not going to start how we started on Born Survivor, like a 10k race or a 5k race. I'm still gonna remember I've got 13 miles to do, but I'm gonna work harder than I've ever worked at a beast and lean into a bit of pain, I think that's exactly what I did at ocr series.
Speaker 1:
That was exactly why I went there yeah, I think it's good this oh, stop nigg*ring my things well this close out to the euros.
Speaker 3:
I think it's a good opportunity to try things and just and see, especially because I mean these races mean a little bit. But if I walk away kind of sick because I've blown up, because I know I'm testing a strategy, I'm not gonna care because I'm like, well, now I know the answer. So it's going in with an attitude of I'm racing hard, I'm going to try and get a good result and I'm still going to race. People, if you're on my shoulder, don't think I'm giving up because I'm testing. No, I'm still going to try and make you suffer with me. But yeah, it's a bit of science, bit of testing, oh science it's got the lab about you guys, you got a race this weekend.
Speaker 3:
I feel like we've talked a lot about me.
Speaker 1:
I haven't Darren has Darren's putting the beef out well, you didn't mention me, and who's hot? So I did. I said you're going to be behind me but now you're going to definitely be in front of me because I'm racing.
Speaker 2:
I think we've all raced nuclear many times and we have the luxury of that as well. That I know. We know kind of what the course is going to lay out like. We know there's segments to it. There is there's hard pack quite fast racing parts to it. There's there's a lot of um, mud in in certain bits and then there's an obstacle, dense section and then there's a full out send it right at the end. So there's segments to this race that you need to think.
Speaker 2:
If you're not going out and just dying for the complete race, you can think about how do you race each one of those segments, especially if you're racing people that are more proficient at obstacles, you need to be thinking how you are you going to get there before them. So my, the strategy has got to be that you you're hitting out. You're going out hard at the beginning to keep to put in your 10k pace right at the beginning and as soon as you hit them, hit the obstacles, you've got to be very I've got to be fully proficient and quick at those obstacles. That is the only way that I'm going to get time on the people that are very good at the the fast running hard pack sections. So there's no way that I cannot be. I can be slow at obstacles. That is that's got to be the strategy. The strategy has got to be aggressive at the obstacles. That's the only way that I'm going to get up the top at the weekend.
Speaker 2:
So my main strategy evolves around being very aggressive obstacles I can't wait to see that, but but the what I've said before in the past is that keeping I've got to make sure that I maintain that pace because I know full well that if I ascend it too hard I I take away my aggressive nature and obstacles because I'm dying a little bit you're riding a very, very fine line yeah, it's just how do you do it.
Speaker 1:
You've got no choice you want to do well at that race. You want to take some points for the series. You've got what's the word I'm looking for, where you take risks. Are you going to take risks? Yeah, where you take risks there's another word for taking risks in there. What's a fancy one? Give me a fancy one, throw a fancy one out there I don't know that's that.
Speaker 2:
Take risks. Is the yeah, this is the best one. How would you pace it? Ships what the race win.
Speaker 1:
Pace the race to win um it to be honest here, what I was going to do if I was going to race nuclear. I was actually going to try and follow, like basically be on your shoulder and see how long I could maintain it or if I could hold that pace. That's what I actually wanted to do if I raced it.
Speaker 1:
I wanted to see yeah, I wanted to see how, how hard I could push that start, because it's it's still a hard one for me and I know you're a good level, you're you're your level of running. That start of the race is probably better than mine, but your skills are very similar in some ways. Well, we've got similar, got similar skills, but in different ways. So I wanted to sort of hit, see how I could work it that way.
Speaker 2:
You'd be going out hard. You'd be going in. I'd be going out hard. You'd be outside of your comfort zone at the beginning of a race.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, but I would like to see how hard, how long I could keep that.
Speaker 2:
My confidence. I need to build my confidence in this race and it is staying with dan through all the carries at the beginning. Yeah, that's, that's the confidence zone and yes, I'm not disillusioned. Mo, I know you're gonna say you need to be, you need to die and you not not need to be a puss*, like you told me last time. But let's be realistic. Dan's gonna get away from me on the carry after the carries because of his running, but if I'm with there, that's. That is confidence I'm building and if I can build confidence throughout the race, that will build my strategy and that will hopefully build a very, very fast finish well, you did exactly the same thing last time to jason, I think.
Speaker 3:
Again he just slipped away from you at the end, but that was confidence right there. Yeah, you stuck to a game plan I'll tell you what his confidence was.
Speaker 1:
When he see me behind him and he put down the nicest looking stride, give me a little wave like he wasn't even trying that was funny.
Speaker 2:
That was after uh minions, something like that. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I actually think nuclear is the most strategic race that we have in the uk as well. You can really put a good game plan together yeah, you, you do.
Speaker 2:
It is actually a race where you build confidence throughout it, because it's like, yes, I've hit that segment. Good, right now I've done a fiddly obstacle, quick, quickly. Right, I've got through the first technical obstacle. Right, I've faced a fear and gone into the water and slide and didn't, didn't start at the top, I just went straight into it. I'm out of it now. Yes, I've held onto the zip wire all the way to the end, cause, even though even though they tell you to go in midway, you hold it all the way you don't do that.
Speaker 2:
No, no, I'm hitting that bank there's. There is loads of things to build confidence in it, that there's loads of mistakes that can happen as well. So you just got to keep keep building that confidence right. The race that's. That is the pacing strategy especially if you're.
Speaker 3:
I also find if you're racing to win, it's exactly like what I said earlier. That is the perfect example of a course that when you make your gaps in the beginning, the race slows down to a point where, because it's so muddy and slippy or there's water sections, you can't really make time on them sections Obviously the technical sections you can make a bit more time, but on the sections where it's just muck and it's just no one makes time there. So you need to get out hot and you need to if you're trying to win. You need to be up in that front right from the beginning. Now people are going to steal our strategy and everyone's going to go off too hot.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, you're going to see 20 people on nuclear just f*cking hanging it five minute mile pace through that wood section.
Speaker 1:
It's quick through that wood section's, quick through that wood section. Yeah, that's the best.
Speaker 2:
That's the fastest section and the end the end.
Speaker 1:
Oh yeah, in the end, yeah, yeah, until you hit the travelator, yeah I'll tell you where that's a good obstacle section that last bit.
Speaker 2:
Tell you where you send it. You send it after the rolos things you've got to like shimmy on.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got the um, the one you jump across, but they call it something different iso dragons back, isotope. Yeah, dragons back, but isotope that's. And then you go into the woods and then back up.
Speaker 2:
That is the quick section yeah, so so you, after you've done rolos, you send it hard like that's, that's your last section that you you've really got to put it in yeah, I mean, if the course is similar to you as before as well, you have that really nice running section after the kind of stairway area yeah, yeah, which brings you back up and you got that sort of up and over.
Speaker 1:
past all the mud queens rings, yeah, like after you get past that. Yeah, um, I mean actually I think the last time we did it or a couple years ago we did it a different past all the Mud Queens rings, yeah, like after you get past that, yeah.
Speaker 3:
I mean, actually, I think the last time we did it, or a couple of years ago, we did it a different way around, which after the stairway was even quicker, which was really quick. But after you get past the Mud Queen wings and all them sort of things fiddly bits, wings you can really put some time in there as well.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think after you've done stairway, you need to start telling yourself this is go time, this is the end.
Speaker 3:
Now I'm ready.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I either want this position to keep or I'm pushing that person in front, I'm getting them Like that's the time, can't wait. There we go, pacing God, pacing covered hopefully, like that's the time, can't wait.
Speaker 1:
there we go, pacing god pacing covered hopefully good job.
Speaker 3:
We did do a whole episode on that, yeah to be honest, I think there's actually more we can say yeah on everything.
Speaker 1:
I don't think we could ever not.
Speaker 3:
I think we should call it there just before people are yawning yeah thinking what are these guys?
Speaker 1:
on. People don't realize how long these episodes are to record.
Speaker 2:
They only get snippy it's crazy because people don't talk about this. Obviously, this is such a niche sport at the minute and this there's loads of people just jumped into high rocks and people doing OCR it will grow and it will keep growing obstacle course racing and we're going to be like the first people really going into the weeds of these silly little questions, but they are just so important to us.
Speaker 3:
Look how much value that just held to us. We managed to talk about that for however long this has been so important.
Speaker 2:
It makes or breaks you as an athlete in this sport, understanding the nitty-gritty of these little questions and even as a fun runner, I mean.
Speaker 1:
You're probably rocking up to your first obstacle race thinking, ah, this is all right, there's not going to be too much involved, and then all of a sudden you're starting to think about it and think, hang on a second, there's so much involved here. This isn't. This isn't a quick takeaway, this is a buffet keep that one.
Speaker 2:
That's a good t-shirt, one I like that nice isn't it a takeaway?
Speaker 3:
this is a buffet, I like it, let's end. Isn't it a takeaway? This is a buffet, I like it, let's end it there, because that is brilliant All right, say it one more time ships.
Speaker 2:
and then we'll just end it this well, bye, or this is a buff?
Speaker 1:
no, this is a takeaway. No, this isn't a takeaway, it's a buffet, bye-bye, bye.
